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Epoxy question

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Swept View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 6:23pm
Hi all,
Long time reader, first time poster.

I have a question regarding Epoxy clear coats, particularly Envirotex Lite over resin lures.

I am having issues with air-bubbles. I can get rid of the majority of them with a lighter/heat gun/and blowing. But I always end up with microscopic tiny bubbles that I just can"t get rid of.

They are very visible over foil finishes and barely noticeable over paint.

Anyone have any experience with this? Would greatly appreciate any help, as I'm near pulling my hair out over it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 8:40am
Hey swept,I will help if I can. Exactly what process are you using at moment ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swept Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 8:53am
Thanks Glider.
The lures are resin cast and then sanded, filled and primed. Paint goes down. Then they are foiled. Before the epoxy process begins.

Im pouring etex by eye into 2 small medicine cups. Mixing together and letting it sit for 10/15min for air bubbles to escape. I have also tried pouring into a bigger container so there is more surface area for the bubbles to escape. This has helped remove all the larger bubbles but still leaves the same micro ones.

The etex is brushed onto the lures while they are on a rotator. If there are any visible air bubbles I use a jet lighter, straw and or heat gun to try remove. The larger ones always pop but those little ones don't

Hopefully you have some ideas that will keep me from going crazy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyonline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 10:15am
Do you get bubbles in the cured resin in the pot? Or only on the lures?

If they're in the pot as well, it might be worth putting the mixed resin into a vacuum chamber to remove them all then carefully apply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swept Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 10:34am
Originally posted by flyonline flyonline wrote:

Do you get bubbles in the cured resin in the pot? Or only on the lures?

If they're in the pot as well, it might be worth putting the mixed resin into a vacuum chamber to remove them all then carefully apply.


I get them in both. Have always assumed a vacuum chamber would be an expensive fix..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 11:38am
Hey swept,several possibilities, if you're getting bubbles over foil then you can discount air escaping from blank,that leaves the mixing and application of e.tex. It's possible if you are mixing epoxy in warm temperature and then waiting 15 to 20 mins your e.tex is starting to cure to much for applying with brush ,unlikely but possibly adding to problem. The bubbles are caused by chemical reaction and not over mixing, this is normal. Assuming you are mixing 50/50 as near as you possibly can ,then your method of 2 small containers is sound,I use shot glasses and flat bottom stir stick. Assuming also your thoroughly mixing for long enough (if not,this would mean uncured epoxy rather than bubbles) ,I mix for 5mins ,I suspect your e.tex might be starting to cure and/or your trying to avoid bubbles by waiting to long hoping they will pop before you apply. If not this then it has to be how your applying it, I suspect the former, to narrow it down try this- mix your e.tex thoroughly and fairly vigorously for 5 minutes, dont worry about extreme ammount of bubbles, apply to lures when mixed,no need to wait ,don't apply heavy coats. Apply heat gun by waving up and down lure for few seconds only,wait 5 mins then heat gun for few seconds,wait 5 min do same. This usually is enough for glass finish with no bubble , some time only 1 or 2 heat gun needed,occasionally more. If you over do heat or apply to soon without 5 min interval you can actually create more bubbles. Mix vigorously, dont worry about bubbles,apply,then dont over do heatgun you should get bubble free, don't' be tempted to keep applying heat at every bubble ,you'll keep making them! Try this and let me know how get on,we'll get to the bottom of it.........glider
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 12:07pm
these are done with e-tex as described, the mixed e-tex in container had thousands of small bubbles!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 12:09pm
Don't worry about bubbles when applying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 2:00pm
Hey, I live in far north Qld and I also found that it was no good waiting as per the instructions. I measure out with 2 disposable shot glasses then mix vigorously for 2-3 mins and pretty much apply straight away. Ive also found I can only get 4-5 maybe 6 lures covered before you can feel the e tex curing, so I agree, waiting 10mins is probably too long to wait. Once the lures are spinning in my dryer I keep a close eye on them and for short period of time after coating and while drying, I can brush away any remaining bubbles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 9:21pm
Think this thing about waiting came about with lure makers worried about bubbles! Instructions actually say apply straight away i think...?glider
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 4:49am
Yeah I reckon your right there.
Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyonline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 8:23am
Originally posted by glider glider wrote:

The bubbles are caused by chemical reaction and not over mixing, this is normal.

Sorry, can't agree to this and everything I've read says that bubbles come from the mixing, but I think you're right that the bubbles are caused by waiting too long so the epoxy thickens slightly making it difficult for the bubbles to escape. 

Swept

vacuum chambers for this kind of stuff is easy and cheap, I've used a tupperware container with a tube glued through the lid and a fridge compressor as a vacuum. Goes down to 29" Mercury (-14psi).

Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 9:32am
Yes steve,the bubbles come from the reaction caused by mixing,however this is a sign that you are mixing thoroughly and is a good sign.So do you put your mixed epoxy in vacum then apply to lure? Does this produce bubble free finish when applied ? I mix e-tex till almost opaque with bubbles then use method I described ,I get no bubbles on lure-none.I have made hundreds of lures without bubbles, have you proven your vacum method on lots of lures and found it easier? Thanks........glider
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 10:02am
I think e-tex is very temperamental regarding temperature and humidity, occasionally I will heat unmixed parts gently in warm water if it's chilly,I don't think cold would be an issue in oz though!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swept Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 11:12am
Massive thanks everyone for their help! I had another go with it last night after reading the suggestions. Here's what I did and how it resulted.

Vigorously mixed for 5 minutes, this made the epoxy into a foamy broth.

Applied thin coat to lure, to my surprise, most bubbles burst soon after being applied. 

Heat gun used for a few seconds over the lure, in the past I would keep heating the lure to burst any visible bubbles. This time I just gave it a once over and left it.

Repeated the heating process after 5minutes. At this stage there was still a noticeable amount of micro bubbles, I have never been able to burst these, regardless of the heat gun or jet lighter.


Left to cure over night. 

As you can see, these bubbles are tiny and are only noticeable over the foil. Over normal paint, they are very hard to see. The result was much better than previous attempts, so straight away we are on the improve. But would really like to get rid of them completely. 

This pic shows the worst case of air bubbles so far on another lure. Larger bubbles always burst, its these tiny ones I have trouble with. 


I'm pouring these in my garage. The weather here in Brisbane is HOT and very humid. I have been trying to do it at night when its cooler (slightly)

Thoughts?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 11:42am
Are you using nice thin coats swept ? I do 3-4 thin coats. Heat gun after each coat with 5 min intervals so as not to hot, its not the heat that pops bubbles but carbon monoxide. Also could be your brush,personaly I apply with my finger using disposable glove fingers,but others use brush with good results.I dont know if humidity in your area is having an effect but try very thin coats then heat gun again, It might just be coat thickness and heat gun application needing tweaked.I use heatgun on highest setting and waft lure for few seconds from about 8to10 inches. Make sure your getting each side of lure for several seconds each time.lets know how you get on,cheers ...glider
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 11:54am
Also try putting your separate shot glasses with epoxy in hot water for a minute before mixing in case your epoxy is coldish, if parts too cool this can produce micro bubbles also,good luck,...glider
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swept Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 12:00pm
I'm thinking my coats aren't thin enough. I will try that next and see how it goes. Might change the brush I'm using too. There are a million different variables.. slowly narrowing it down... 

Are you applying 3-4 coats and letting each one cure? That could take some serious time!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 12:10pm
I suspect coat thickness could be part of problem,slightly warming also allows thinner coats,You shold wait till each coat at least almost cured,but not bad to thing to apply before completely cured ,for me at least 8 hours between coats usually more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 12:13pm
There are other options using alcohol but this can lead to other issues,try tweaks as suggested first.....glider
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barnsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 3:06pm
Hey Swept

A couple of things I used to do when applying epoxy that may or may not help out with the heat and humidity in Brisbane.
Firstly instead of mixing the two parts of the epoxy in a shot glass I would mix them in the base of an aluminium food container. The disposable foil kind used for takeaways, get them in the supermarket or discount shops. Would mix the resin and hardener together as a 'puddle' in the bottom of the container. Because the epoxy was in a thin layer when mixed there seemed to be less bubbles in the mix and the bubbles escaped quicker. The aluminium also dissipated the heat from the curing reaction a bit so gave a bit longer working time before the epoxy was too stiff to brush on. On really hot days you can sit a freezer block / slicker under the tray to slow the curing down a bit.
Secondly a tip I got from an epoxy company technician was prior to mixing to stand the epoxy bottles in a cup of hot water with the caps off. He said reasoning for this was that once opened the epoxy can absorb moisture from the air which could form bubbles during the curing process. Warming the epoxy with the cap off helps to release some of the moisture prior to mixing. Also said this helps to give the epoxy a longer shelf life if you are not using it often.

Great looking stickbaits as well.

Cheers
Barnsy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 3:36pm
Gliders on to the problem here.
your coats are being applied too thick/heavy would be my thoughts from looking at your pic.
The most important thing is cleanliness, mix product well, do not do it by eye, exact measurements are best, i like to do 1mm or so extra hardener, eg if im mixing 20ml ...i do 10 ml resin to 11 to 12ml of hardener...this tiny amount extra ensures no tackiness, go the other way you wont cure correctly everytime.
I find mixing in a shallow container best, i mix vigourously and with determination for 5 min....then i sit for 10 min sometimes more, depending on weather, you get to know...longer or less.
id say the lures your having trouble with are the ones done last?
sometimes if your rotating and the lures have a large side, or flat side eg, the epoxy gathers and you get the small bubbles in deep as in your pic....thinner coats and youll be right.
just my thoughts.
i dont use a heat gun, i just blow a heavy breath on the lure whether it needs it or not a few times in the first half hr after application.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rodsncods Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by Nicho Nicho wrote:

Gliders on to the problem here.
your coats are being applied too thick/heavy would be my thoughts from looking at your pic.
The most important thing is cleanliness, mix product well, do not do it by eye, exact measurements are best, i like to do 1mm or so extra hardener, eg if im mixing 20ml ...i do 10 ml resin to 11 to 12ml of hardener...this tiny amount extra ensures no tackiness, go the other way you wont cure correctly everytime.
I find mixing in a shallow container best, i mix vigourously and with determination for 5 min....then i sit for 10 min sometimes more, depending on weather, you get to know...longer or less.
id say the lures your having trouble with are the ones done last?
sometimes if your rotating and the lures have a large side, or flat side eg, the epoxy gathers and you get the small bubbles in deep as in your pic....thinner coats and youll be right.
just my thoughts.
i dont use a heat gun, i just blow a heavy breath on the lure whether it needs it or not a few times in the first half hr after application.
yeah , but your full of hot air anywayLOL.....mick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rally44 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 5:23pm
Jason, Is the higher humidity levels in Brisbane having a effect?? When I`ve used epoxy up here in NQ had to be aware of it. Its generally higher night-time too.Cheers Richard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 5:53pm
Thanks mick...was expecting it :)

Richard, ive found that i can use it rain hail or shine hot or cold, my preference being crisp cool night or mornings, but humidity etc certainly changes things, its just a matter of trial and error to learn best method of application depending on circumstances, and work with it.....it gets very humid here too, and that certainly requires more work to get a good result, but can be done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 10:33am
Don't have humidity issues in scotland nicho so couldn't say if that's swepts issue ! Like yourself I use e-tex all year without problems. I'm thinking coat thickness 1issue,however one thing guaranteed to produce excess micro bubbles that Don't disapear easily is mixing e-tex that is too cool. If temperature cool I warm in bowl of hot water, didnt think that would be an issue out your part of the world ,ideally e-tex should be 75'f or therabout . Nice looking lure swept, hope you solve issues. .....glider
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beer-breath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2017 at 11:52am
i'm thinking he is mixing it way too much and too vigorously. i spend at most, two minutes mixing it. and it never, ever looks as bubbly as his. it most certainly should not be frothy, that's too much mixing i would think. and like other have said, start applying it almost right away. 5 minutes waiting before applying is too long.
 
some people do have problems with etex. with not getting measurements precise and never hardening, or always having bubbles. environment and temperatures are factors, and so is mixing times and methods.
 
myself, i have been lucky, i guess, to have had it pretty much always work well for me. and i'm usually using it during canadian winters as well, and out in the garage, not in the house.
i turn the heater on and have my rotator set up near by. and i will even set up a portable heater dish that oscillates and set it up close to the rotator.
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