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Jointed Lures/Swim Baits

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    Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 2:41pm
I recently received this sexy looking lure from the U.S.:
 

I bought it because I have this idea for making a similar jointed lure and I wanted to see how it was done. Here's the plan I have so far:
 

As you can see it's a mullet pattern that I made into a vector file from a photo of a real mullet so that each section can be separated and made into their own templates. I was thinking I would cut it out as normal, cut out each section and then sandwich the pieces between two bits of wood so I could cut each part in half longways (on the band saw) so the the polycarbonate fins and tail can be glued in (based on an idea I saw in some of those to-die-for U.S. trout pattern swim baits) along with the connectors to allow the jointed sections to swim. Either that or try and use a drill to cut slots for the fins and connectors.. not sure how I'm going to do it yet. I'd also put the tow-points in then too (not sure where yet) and then glue the two halves back together again, shape it and finish as normal. To make it swim properly you need to make hinges at the top and bottom of each butting face of each section so it can move left and right but not up and down. Any ideas how would you do it? It also needs to either sink slowly or be neutrally buoyant... any ideas on how to do this with a wooden lure? There are youtube vids on it but they aren't very clear.
 
TIA
 
Simon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TasV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 3:52pm

Had an idea... if I was to make twisted tow points like I would to make tow points for normal lures but make them so that two are linked together I could glue one into one section and the other into the next and put two sets per section (top and bottom)... no need to cut anything in half :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tooch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 7:54pm
Hi Simon, That's how I make my joints for my lures. Twist up one tow point and then thread the next one through the eye and twist the next one , then you can screw the tow point in as usual....WinkWinkWink....Pete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hazmail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 9:21pm
Simon - My advice with these is don't start Cry especially if you are going to make anything under 8 -10Cm !!
Anyway for what it's worth and you are probably going to do it anyway here are some hints-
First thing you should do is go to FleaBay and get some 0-100 Gm scales ($20)- If you decide to use the 'tow eyes' hooked together, which is the simplest way, you will find these hinges are a bit sloppy but will work, but only a  fast pace and the bigger the lure the sloppier they get.. To get a nice rigid lure like the one pictured, you need to make some screw eyes with a tight fitting pin through them as the one you have posted and your diagram - you glue the eyes in the leading segment, cut a slot in the following segment and then drill down through the lure then insert and glue a tight fitting pin for the ‘hinge’, it also helps if you have some sort of bush or washer on either side of the pin/eye connection (small nylon, Teflon or S/S washers)- with these type lures the freer and more rigid the hinge swings the better they work, a good swim bait, even at a very slow retrieve, will look like a snake or fish swimming through the water, a bad one flops from side to side and looks like a ‘turd’ being dragged through the water!! This is where tight rigid/ hinges come in, none of the vortices are wasted as they are with a wire hinged lure. Also compared to a simple screw eye hinge the ‘gate’ type hinge is set further back in the segment which will also aids in the action.
As for ballast, you would have to get all the segments (sealed) and add, your eyes/hinges, hooks, tow eyes and hook harnesses and some lead until they sink at the rate you want , if you are going to use it in salt water you will need to get/make some salt water and weight it for salt. When you have done this divide the lead ballast by the number of segments and this is roughly what you will need for each- when adding the ballast to each section it is important to have it as close to the hinge axis (leading end) and as low as possible, this ensures that there is minimum inertia at the rear of each segment allowing it to swing more freely, also overall you should consider weighting it slightly heavier in the leading segment (nose) and slightly lighter in the tail, we are talking points of grams here!! Note in the picture the head symmetrical and is longer  than the trailing segments (very important)
If I were you I would make one, don’t paint it, play with it, add weight and experiment (record all you do, otherwise you will get lost in all the variations)- when you have the formula ‘down pat’, you should be able to make them all the same.
I am no expert, but I made about five last year, first two were duds, the next one was OK?? and the last two were very nice (IMHO), so from a novice, start with a prototype and work from there.
The hinge I made is a S/S single hinge (double helix and even more rigid), it will hold mega Kg, it took many hours to perfect and was a lot of the reason the first three I made were duds, when I got it right they swam like real fish, and two real fish stole both of them. So what I am saying is get the hinge right, your ballast right and you are 90% there.
AND- Sometimes it helps to have the tow eye set horizontal instead of the usual vertical.
Like I said I would not go there!!!
Pete-R

Your picture



Hinge



This one was a dud ( 9 Cm)



These two were keepers (8 Cm)





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abuadmiral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 9:42pm
Super ideas there Pete.
Look like you have succeeded already.
Look forward to reading of your continuing progress.
This top lure you imported from USA has to be moulded doesn't it?

cheers
wayne
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tooch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 9:43pm
HI Pete, You put a lot of work and effort into your joints it's a credit to you....ClapClapClapClap..well done mate...Pete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hazmail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 10:10pm
Thanks Pete, more time than I want to know there - it was not the joint, but the figuring out how and with what to make it that took the time.

Wayne, I think most of them are cast foam, but you have to start with a prototype before you can mould it-- most of the 'swim baits' I have 'carved' were made with 'PVC foam' which was a mistake, it's too buoyant, better to use wood or something heavier, also with all it's advantages, PVC is a bitch to finish!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tooch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 10:24pm
Hi Pete, I'm playing around with a jointed surface popper at the moment
and Ive been looking at some of the other lures that have them
to me the K.I.S.S. system seems to be the go but I think it will be
a little bit longer before I get it sorted out...WinkWinkWinkWink...Pete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hazmail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 10:34pm
From what I have seen/done with these, anything that floats will not 'swim' - for vortices to work (which is essential) you need to have all over water flow which means neutral or sinking, otherwise as soon as they hit the surface they turn into a dragged turd again. 'Sammy's or 'twitch baits' (pardon the pun) are what I think you might be looking for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TasV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 10:41pm
Thanks for that Pete... that's been extremely helpful. I reckon with a bit of playing I can give it a fair crack. If they turn out half as good as these ones of yours I'll be happy. About 12cm is what I was thinking for the one I want to try... It's interesting to note that in the plastic one I bought, shown above, there is no weight in the back three sections, only in the front. The only weight in the back three sections comes from the the tackle and hinges. When you swim it, you need to swim it fairly fast. It is negatively buoyant; it sinks like a rock. I think I will do as you have done and forget the fins... maybe just the tail as it seems to help it swim and I reckon it will just make it hard to add the ballast and tackle.
 
Thanks again. I appreciate your help.
 
Simon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tooch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 10:49pm
HI Pete, sorry I didn't mention that my poppers I was talking about are surface
walkers and padlle from side to side. I was hoping to make them click as the two halves
bump together and attract the fish to them...WinkWinkWink...Pete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hazmail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 9:02am
Simon- from what you say about the lure being front weighted I reckon this is why it will not perform a slower speeds- the slower it goes the more the head points down which does not allow the vortices to pass along the length of the lure and give it the swimming action- if you speed it up the head is raised to a more horizontal plane  and vortices begin to effect the action.
Probably rule No1 with these is, to take advantages of vortices passing over the head, the lure must travel parallel to the flow which is the same as a flag in the wind,,, tilt the flag pole into the wind (off 90 degrees to it) and the flag will start to droop instead of a steady 'waving' motion, these are the same forces except one is wind and the other is water, in this case the flag pole is the lure head, the bigger the diameter the better. Probably rule No2 is, until you get your head around how it works (vortices), you will fumble and grope in the dark, I did anyway.

This is an animation of a 'Von Karmen vortex street"


More here:
http://weathervortex.com/wakes.htm

This is a good one (sorry about the music)




I have lately been getting back into this, I'm trying to build a dust filter.
Sorry if this is boring, but I find it fascinating.65

Pete-R



[edit by Tony 22 Sept] - Pete, I fixed up the link and Youtube link to make it easier for fellow LureLovers to check out the excellent info you provided, Thank you, very educational! Thumbs Up
   'RAYNA' ---Free Range Lures
peterayn@yahoo.com.au
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TasV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2010 at 10:38pm
Great links... appeals to the science side of me...
 
How would a bib go with these swimbaits?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hazmail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2010 at 2:58pm
Tas- yes it will make a lure that will not swim, swim - but that's cheating and only a last ditch effort - the action is more a rocking /rolling action which makes the tail swing with the roll,, rather than a snake action.
How do I know??? I have made a few duds in my time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puglee62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2010 at 11:25pm
what your talking is ''hydrodynamics'' Pete,i take my hat off to you ,you are certainly very persistent,i think
i would've given up.I can now see why these lures are so expensive to buy (the cottage ones anyway)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TasV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2010 at 10:50pm
Just reading back on this a bit.. how do you work with expanded PVC?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puglee62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by puglee62 puglee62 wrote:

what your talking is ''hydrodynamics'' Pete,i take my hat off to you ,you are certainly very persistent,i think
i would've given up.I can now see why these lures are so expensive to buy (the cottage ones anyway)
ive just re read my post,sorry Pete i wasnt suggesting your lures are expensive!PinchBig smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hazmail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2010 at 3:11pm
Tas -sorry for the delay, I have been away sailing again BooHoo(no fish)
'Expanded PVC Board' is used mainly by sign-writers for bill boards etc and can be sourced at your local plastics supplier or on the web??
It 'works' like wood only better, the only thing I have problems with is machine sanding, it tends to 'ball up' from the heat- other then that it carves, saws, rout's and planes like wood, except it does not have the grain, is about as buoyant as Balsa but impervious to water, so is a great product for Bream lures.
This is what it basically is, there are many manufacturers, this definition is "Sintra board"-
http://www.sintrapvc.com/

Try also : Klegecell - Divinycell
or this,(Googled) -
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&biw=1268&bih=852&q=expanded+PVC+board&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=f58fe64ac2ffe34f

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hazmail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2010 at 3:24pm
Puglee, no problem, I have been away so I had not read it and to me it reads as you intended- the work in getting these to 'swim' is enormous, I am not kidding when I say I probably spent two days making each of them, I think I made 5/6, I think the first three were varying dud's the green one pictured was Thumbs UpThumbs Down and the last two pictured worked, each was a learning experience--- once you get the gist of it things are a bit easier.
I don't sell them any way, but if I ever do they will have to be expensive as I work so bl----y slow, even at $10 an hour I would starve to death.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CaptainCranky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2010 at 4:26pm
Is the top lure in the first post a Sebile?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TasV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2010 at 8:56pm

Thanks Pete... I wasn't even thinking of some kind of carving plastic... sounds really good. Do screws go into it as well as into wood?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hazmail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2010 at 10:41pm
Tas- I have not used screws in it with lures, but I have screwed pieces together and they hold just like wood - If you are thinking of using screw eyes in it, I would be using some epoxy as insurance as you would with wood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CaptainCranky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2010 at 11:35pm
Nice lure all the same Tas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hazmail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2010 at 3:15pm
Here are some Japanese Vagabond 'swim baits' 12" @ about $245 ea, looks like cast foam- beautiful finish.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.lure-fly.com/vagabond/release/2009/2009kinghustler/2009kinghustler.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dvagabond%2Blure%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DWBs%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26prmd%3Dv&rurl=translate.google.com.au

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2020 at 6:28pm
Hey Peter, any chance of seeing those pics of your hinge that are blurred out and how you’ve positioned them on the mullet. I’m currently experiencing many of the concerns you raised in this old post. It sounds like I need to tighten up the hinge section to get the snake action I’m after. It currently swims more like a glide bait at the moment with no action in each segment (3). 
My apologises if they were intentionally blurred out 
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