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Lure Prices

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Werriscreekwonda View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 10:31am
I didn't quite know where to put this one so just plonked it here.

How do you price your lures? Or what value do you put on lures?

Just saw a comment on the prices of craft lures being a bit high, which in some cases I agree with. I'm amazed at what people are paying for some lures and other times I see quite good lures going cheap.
It seems to me that there are the collectors, who are willing to pay high costs to get what they want, and also the speculators who buy lures hoping the value goes up.

As a maker I'm pricing mine purely by time and materials and the price of beer. People have told me I'm selling mine too cheap though.

Just curious to hear what a few other makers and buyers have to say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beer-breath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 12:06pm
how fast are you making yours? if I were to price with time factored in, one lure would be well over $100. there's no making real $$ at it, not for me, that's for sure.
I don't think any handmade lure should be even as cheap as $20. what's the point, that would be giving it away. that's not even an hour's wage. but, then one has to be aware of what people are realistically willing to spend also. there's a price where they will just feel it's too high, even though it isn't to the maker.
I look at lure-making as a hobby first-and-foremost. if someone wants to buy some, fine, but they aren't a mass-produced lure, and their price will reflect that.
i'm seeing some local makers advertising how their lures are all "handmade". apparently that term has changed. turning on a lathe, airbrush-painted, then store-bought screw-eyes is hardly "handmade", not when there are guys carving, shaping, and sanding by hand, painting by hand, making their own wire eyes or even more extensive through-wires, etc. I wouldn't even call mine "handmade" as I use an airbrush and a Dremel. I just feel that would be an insult to those true artists out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chep Buxley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 1:08pm

I’ll add my 2 cents worth…………The quality & workmanship of the lures I saw at the Expo was amazing. The starting price for a nice timber lure was $20 and went up from there.

If you make lures that are intended to be fished, then the price must be similar to that of a massed produced equivalent. Someone who is not interested in collecting isn’t going to pay more just because it’s timber & “handmade”.

Collectors on the other hand will pay a lot more for something they like. They aren’t worried about paying $35 for a surface lure shaped like a mouse because it will never get wet.

Another example is the increase in “Limited Edition Collector’s Versions” of mass produced plastic made in China………….Those guys must get tired of laughing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Werriscreekwonda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 2:03pm
I make my lures to be fished...I do make them quite pretty but basically I'm just making old school fishing lures.It also just happens that I enjoy making them too.I have made some bigger ones recently that I ask a bit more coin for but they take a lot longer to make and use much more material.
I do agree though that a plastic mass produced lure...in a limited run of thousands starts to make me wonder a bit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chep Buxley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 6:34pm
I had a go about mass produced lures bringing out limited edition lures...………..well I'm guilty as charged. I've got a Rapala collectors edition - possibly the most massed produced lure in the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nativeman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 7:09pm
If the kids of today go into a tackle shop and pay 20 to 35 bucks for something made in China/Japan, and mass produced. I figure some that I made is worth nearly as much. My cod lure I charge $25 and my smaller ones $20. 

I sold plenty at the Lure show and I was happy with the results considering it was my first time doing it seriously. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ducks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 7:46pm
How long is a piece of string?
Some would argue that I misidentify myself but "I'm not a collector"
I'm more than happy buying timber lures up to about $35. Above that and it's really a struggle to convince myself of the value. That's not to say I don't buy them but I think long and hard. I know despite best intention if I buy a $100+ swimbait it's probably not going to soar deep in the snag where it needs to be.
There are lures which I love every bit of except the price. Not to single anyone one but swimbaits, right?
Saying all this I think 'mass produced' lures are often mass produced because they are bloody good. And I buy lots of those too. I have a lower happy place on pricing with those - which is not a reflection of quality rather just knowing that retailers are competing and they'll always be available with a big mark down in sales etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Werriscreekwonda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 8:21pm
True..They are worth what someone will pay.

I assume people are collecting mine hoping that I'll lose a hand in some ill conceived mega fizzer accident....hmm.now there's an idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ducks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by Werriscreekwonda Werriscreekwonda wrote:

True..They are worth what someone will pay.

I assume people are collecting mine hoping that I'll lose a hand in some ill conceived mega fizzer accident....hmm.now there's an idea.


For the record - my impression based on the quality of what I see on here is that your lures are underpriced based on quality size and finish VS other "cod" lures.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Werriscreekwonda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2018 at 8:38pm
More checking blokes ideas of price generally...
I remember buying a tenterfield dart back in the 1990's. Might have paid $14 somethingish...
Average lure in a tackleshop was $10-$16...

If someone found a orange and white dart in the Namoi river back in the early 90's...it was mine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 4:32am
I started making lures myself 2-3 years ago and then a few friends took a liking to them and asked to buy them. My reply was that I don’t make them to sell but if you want one it will cost you $20 just to cover itself and my cost as the cost of the time and products I use like 2 pac sealers and primers and expensive. I would love to (and have) given away plenty but my lures now have a little following locally as they look good and catch great and I’m now of the mindset of charging $30 a lure simply because I can’t even keep my own lures to myself as I find it hard to say no to someone and not give them a lure I’ve made if they ask for it. I have a friend who I genuinely believe would pay $100+ for one of my lures in a particular size and shape and colour, not because I’m anyone, not because I make the country’s best Barra lure, but because he loves them and he catches stunning big barramundi on them and how can you put a price on that. After all the time and money we put into fishing (cars,boats, fuel,ect) he uses “that” lure and catches “that” fish that gives him “that” feeling that makes it all worth it.
I’ve given away lures to friends who show or send me photos of there captures or told me their stories of there captures on lures they have bought off me and that gives me great satisfaction so how can I put a price on that.
Just my thoughts.
Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rodsncods Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 6:25am
there is lures to lure fish..........and there is lures to lure humans. the same old story, when is it a lure, and when is it a work of art. something to use or something to put behind glass to look at. a big can of worms has been opened again.......mick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 7:42am
I seen the comment regarding lures being expensive and had to hold my tongue.
To turn up at expo costs a lot more for a maker than would be believed..months of work..lost family time..cost of all components (even those you make yourself) fuel..hundreds of dollars for a stall..accomodation..food..etc etc.
20 bucks is a very fair price considering all the above.
Let's just say you purchased the lure on line for 15 dollars...by the time its posted to you its cost you more than 20$!    So at expo all those makers are in one location making it easier and more affordable to purchase what you want

As far as how to price your own lures..ask what you want to get..if they don't sell, adjust the price to find the market...this price will depend on what market your aiming at.
One thing for sure...lures need to be tested..proven over time to catch fish, the price will naturally increase as demand rises if that's what you choose to do or price can stay the same if your happy.
Totally up to you really.

Nichos Maulers Homemade timber lures....THEY CATCH FISH!

YA DONT KNOW...IF YA DONT GO...SO GET OUT THERE AND... FISH IT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Werriscreekwonda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 9:26am
Years back I had some tertiary art training and there were different theories on how to price works then.
One artist priced $20 an hour on the work plus a standard markup. Also commented on at the time was that the buyer was also paying for the years of training and experience that it took to produce the work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horrorhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 10:22pm
Ok, a Tenterfield Dart 20 years ago cost $14. My pay back then was less then $40,000. Last year my pay was more then double that, so that would make the Dart at an equivalent of about $30 plus now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 1:14am
Yer, dosn`t matter where you go or what you are selling. Forget inflation cost of manufacturing and what the bloke next door tells you
The market value of any product is what some one is prepared to pay for it. No more no less
Because we are all different one mans trash will be another`s treasure
In regards to lures some would pay more because of success they have had with it , color, looks , size and a lot of other reasons whilst others would not buy it at half the price
Price ,Fair Price can argue all day but will still be finalized by what some one is prepared to pay
I bet ya needed that 2 bobs worth
Cheers Kimo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ducks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 8:42am
Originally posted by horrorhead horrorhead wrote:

Ok, a Tenterfield Dart 20 years ago cost $14. My pay back then was less then $40,000. Last year my pay was more then double that, so that would make the Dart at an equivalent of about $30 plus now.


Did you work the same job at the same level of seniority?
I think you're inflating inflation there LOL

ps. I'm not saying guys who charge more should not.  As has been alluded to, sell them for as much as people are willing to pay.  I wouldn't pay X dollars, but Martin probably would LOLLOLLOL

Reading between the lines...
Was there some kind of kerfuffle around the expo this year about pricing, and about what is "handmade"?
I've noticed a few posts on Facebook referring to things like "actually hand made" and even one this morning singling out copy lathes with #NoCopyLathe
(Should that be a new thread, or not a thread and just left to burn away at people in silence?)
I'm only mentioning expo as this has popped up only this week that I can see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horrorhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 10:28am
Yes Ducks, i was a team manager for 28 years and working for that same company for almost 33 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horrorhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 10:34am
If you use the “rule of thumb” that many financial planners use - or used to use- then things double in value, and so should wages, every 10 years. But we know that isn’t true which is just as well for some things as a Tenterfield Dart would be $58 dollars these days ( and my salary would have been in excess of $120,000)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Werriscreekwonda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 12:14pm
Actually when I think about it my lure prices mainly go by what I would pay for the lure.
If I was making them just for me they would still be white enamel dipped then spraypak finished...catches fish just as well as a shiny finish.
I'm leaving the debate about what constitutes a handmade lure alone...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beer-breath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 4:47pm
I guess it really comes down to "why are you selling them?".

it can't be to make money, because no profit is being made selling handmade lures. if guys are averaging a lure's price at about $20, then that's not even one hour's wage. just clear-coating one of my lures takes a full day, and that's if it only gets one layer. never mind the time it took to shape it, prep it, paint it, etc. so nobody is selling them to make a profit.

maybe it's to make a name for yourself. I don't know. it makes you feel good that people are using "your" lures that you made.


or, it's just that it's a pleasurable hobby that you enjoy, and you decided to share it with others. i'm probably on that boat. I started making them because I knew I could make better than what was available. lures were getting more and more expensive every year, and their quality was going down with each passing year it seemed. I already had more than I would ever need anyway, but buying them was more an addiction than anything. I have piles of lures that have never touched water.
also, I had visions of colours that I wanted, and nobody made them. so I knew I could create exactly what I wanted to fish with.
personally, I have never had a desire to sell mine. I just know it would be too much of a pain, and, usually when a hobby becomes more like a job, then it loses it's fun as that pleasurable hobby now. but, once people started seeing mine, they wanted them, and others told me I was crazy not to be selling them. but I know I would lose the desire that I have for making them. I really look forward to that creative time spent in the "lure cave". but, again, I can only use so many lures. I've already packed away all my old tackle, as I only use "my" lures now. but i'm getting to around 200 different colours now, and at some point, I might have to come to terms with my "addiction". I actually HAVE to sell/give away/etc lures just to keep the pile down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rodsncods Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by beer-breath beer-breath wrote:

I guess it really comes down to "why are you selling them?".

it can't be to make money, because no profit is being made selling handmade lures. if guys are averaging a lure's price at about $20, then that's not even one hour's wage. just clear-coating one of my lures takes a full day, and that's if it only gets one layer. never mind the time it took to shape it, prep it, paint it, etc. so nobody is selling them to make a profit.

maybe it's to make a name for yourself. I don't know. it makes you feel good that people are using "your" lures that you made.


or, it's just that it's a pleasurable hobby that you enjoy, and you decided to share it with others. i'm probably on that boat. I started making them because I knew I could make better than what was available. lures were getting more and more expensive every year, and their quality was going down with each passing year it seemed. I already had more than I would ever need anyway, but buying them was more an addiction than anything. I have piles of lures that have never touched water.
also, I had visions of colours that I wanted, and nobody made them. so I knew I could create exactly what I wanted to fish with.
personally, I have never had a desire to sell mine. I just know it would be too much of a pain, and, usually when a hobby becomes more like a job, then it loses it's fun as that pleasurable hobby now. but, once people started seeing mine, they wanted them, and others told me I was crazy not to be selling them. but I know I would lose the desire that I have for making them. I really look forward to that creative time spent in the "lure cave". but, again, I can only use so many lures. I've already packed away all my old tackle, as I only use "my" lures now. but i'm getting to around 200 different colours now, and at some point, I might have to come to terms with my "addiction". I actually HAVE to sell/give away/etc lures just to keep the pile down.
there are lure makers that make money from selling their handmade lures......mick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 1:05am
I have sold a few lures to people and it dose give your ego a little masarge when someone is willing to part with hard earned dollars to have something you have created and beerbreath is right there is no profit in hand carving but if helps with the out of pocket expences so that your hobby is not costing you. Then 25 to 40 dollars for "A lure that catches fish" is not to much
As for handmade debate it's a little silly and has more to do with pride/envy than anything else one guy whittle's a lure from the right shaped stick another spends 3+ months designing and lathe,milling welding to make a machine that dose, the same thing, which is more handmade both required imagination, skill and dedication. By all means advertise what makes you special but don't criticize someone else,s method.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beer-breath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 3:43am
I think I view the "handmade" term a little more from an artist point of view, as I also do drawing and photography. I never really thought of it before, but someone recently was admiring my lures and referred to them as "art".

I finally gave up on using my darkroom, as the computer-age of photography has made everything just so easy. I still prefer the darkroom, but results are instantaneous and identical with a simple click of a button on the computer. and ansel adams will always be the best.

and the computer aspect also changed art. a person can draw something, which is incredibly talented and time-consuming. but now a person can simply turn a photo on their computer to a drawing or a painting or a puzzle, all simply by clicking a button. there's no skill there. yes, technically a hand clicked the button, but to then label that as "handmade" is a bit of a stretch I think.


so personally, I tend to really admire the skill and work that goes into something. and knowing something is almost "one-of-a-kind" shows that. I don't view one as being better, but I appreciate the artistry spent on making something.


but the more "handmade" something is, the less profit there will be with it. mass reproduction is where the profit increases. make more, faster. a wooden lure will never be as profitable as a molded plastic one. even rapala started making plastic ones. but of course, the product has to be able to sell in the first place. and the average consumer definitely has a price range they are willing to spend on a lure. rapala holds the world record for world records, yet in my area, they barely move off the shelf. they are priced just that little bit higher, and also I think people seem to lean toward "local" products a little more.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 1:49pm
Artistic lures are a little different the market dictates the level of remuneration the owner of the peice recives and is even less concerned with how they they are made. My comments in my last post were directed at lures one would actually use to catch fish
If I was fishing with or near someone who was out fishing me with a certain lures 4 or 5 to one I would spend $40
Now if the lure was rolled between the thighs of a Cuban virgin like the best cigars then that would be a whole different story

I know very Sexist
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hazmail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 8:42pm
Thanks Dave for posting, I have been watching this for a week, and it's my second try at posting.
This subject comes up every couple of years and nothing changes except the "mark up".
I also note, like prices, the ''Replies'' here  are 1/20th the ''Views", OR the anonymous views are 20 times more than the opinions----------------------that's normal, guess who's viewing ?
Funny thing is, I have never heard of makers complaining about other makers prices, if the price is not ''RIGHT'' they just don't buy them - If they do buy them (OR trade) we would probably just fish them, AND/OR do an ''autopsy'' (to discover any dark secrets), and not brag about how cheap they bought them for etc, just before they try and sell them for 100% mark up.
Don't start me, I'm too old, still working for $25 an hour (@ .50c/min)---work it out guys AND girlsStern Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Werriscreekwonda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2018 at 12:18pm
I'm pretty stingy when buying lures...over a certain price and I just won't buy.
But I don't buy to collect, only to fish with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by hazmail hazmail wrote:

Thanks Dave for posting, I have been watching this for a week, and it's my second try at posting.
This subject comes up every couple of years and nothing changes except the "mark up".
I also note, like prices, the ''Replies'' here  are 1/20th the ''Views", OR the anonymous views are 20 times more than the opinions----------------------that's normal, guess who's viewing ?
Funny thing is, I have never heard of makers complaining about other makers prices, if the price is not ''RIGHT'' they just don't buy them - If they do buy them (OR trade) we would probably just fish them, AND/OR do an ''autopsy'' (to discover any dark secrets), and not brag about how cheap they bought them for etc, just before they try and sell them for 100% mark up.
Don't start me, I'm too old, still working for $25 an hour (@ .50c/min)---work it out guys AND girlsStern Smile
Pete.




your gold pete a campfire and a few beers again one day would be good
Nichos Maulers Homemade timber lures....THEY CATCH FISH!

YA DONT KNOW...IF YA DONT GO...SO GET OUT THERE AND... FISH IT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raffey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by hazmail hazmail wrote:

Thanks Dave for posting, I have been watching this for a week, and it's my second try at posting.
This subject comes up every couple of years and nothing changes except the "mark up".
I also note, like prices, the ''Replies'' here  are 1/20th the ''Views", OR the anonymous views are 20 times more than the opinions----------------------that's normal, guess who's viewing ?
Funny thing is, I have never heard of makers complaining about other makers prices, if the price is not ''RIGHT'' they just don't buy them - If they do buy them (OR trade) we would probably just fish them, AND/OR do an ''autopsy'' (to discover any dark secrets), and not brag about how cheap they bought them for etc, just before they try and sell them for 100% mark up.
Don't start me, I'm too old, still working for $25 an hour (@ .50c/min)---work it out guys AND girlsStern Smile
Pete.


What he said.

Cheers,

Danny.
Echo Lures
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote al49 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2018 at 6:24am
Originally posted by Werriscreekwonda Werriscreekwonda wrote:

I'm pretty stingy when buying lures...over a certain price and I just won't buy.
But I don't buy to collect, only to fish with.
im the same there only buy lures to fish with and will pay whatever going rate is at time for a quality fish catching lure ,but saying that i have used handmade lures that i struggle with but mate right next to me slays fish after fish on them ,and visa versa
it a lot better world if you just smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Werriscreekwonda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2018 at 10:44am
At times it's just down to luck.
I gave my Dad a extra homemade of mine...nothing too flash.
It proceeded to catch fish after fish until it hardly had a scrap of paint and the bib was looking battered...
It lies somewhere in a snag up the back of Copeton Dam now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seaweed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 5:17pm
Dave, same here mate, I make the Seaweed Barra's for fishermen, sorry and fisherwomen. Charged $20 at Expo, a few takers, but because I don't outlay for fancy packaging my problem. The people who take them will catch, I enjoy making a limited output by hand and not out to set the world on fire. I love the Expo for the mateship and that keeps me coming back, met a whole new bunch of fellow tragics this year.

Hope to see you next year, if I can come from Darwin, there are no excuses.
Regards, Seaweed.
"Always Merry and Bright"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seaweed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 5:19pm
Nicho, you're a champ, couldn't agree more. A Murray R. Cod on a Seaweed and bass, you're a legend.
Seaweed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 2:00pm
I am going to throw my two cents in here .
 I am sick and tired of seeing "Handcrafted" or "hand made" on some makers cards/packaging when I know they are made on machines !!!! Then they have the nerve to charge as if you took the time to really hand make it !
I reckon about $25 -$30 for your average cod lure about 100mm long is a good price , but I am seeing $40-$50  on some of these "handmade" lures and it ticks me off !
I like pretty painted sticks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hazmail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by Jeff Jeff wrote:

I am going to throw my two cents in here .
 I am sick and tired of seeing "Handcrafted" or "hand made" on some makers cards/packaging when I know they are made on machines !!!! Then they have the nerve to charge as if you took the time to really hand make it !
I reckon about $25 -$30 for your average cod lure about 100mm long is a good price , but I am seeing $40-$50  on some of these "handmade" lures and it ticks me off !


Tell me you're kidding Jiff, have you ever made one, or maybe some furniture??  ConfusedConfused                   
Pete
   'RAYNA' ---Free Range Lures
raynalures@yahoo.com.au
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